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Archive for the ‘C# / .NET’ Category

I don’t often link to other articles, but this one is worth reading.

Why mobile web apps are slow

by Drew Crawford

… So if you are trying to figure out exactly what brand of crazy all your native developer friends are on for continuing to write the evil native applications on the cusp of the open web revolution, or whatever, then bookmark this page, make yourself a cup of coffee, clear an afternoon, find a comfy chair, and then we’ll both be ready.

He offers data (imagine!) to justly debunk many common memes and “easy answers” that routinely litter HN/Reddit/Slashdot comment threads. The piece is also often subtly (and intentionally) hilarious – do watch for the subtle humor, not just the obvious wit.

Don’t be distracted by the author’s viewpoint and emphasis on “iOS and Javascript” development – the article covers lots of important ground, including:

  • developing for ARM vs. x86;
  • developing for desktop vs. mobile;
  • managed vs. native code performance;
  • JIT issues vs. inherent language design tensions;
  • why garbage collection is not at all the panacea it’s often billed to be and often needs to be emphatically avoided (did you realize Apple already jettisoned GC?); and
  • as many of you know already, why if you’re serious about performance you’ll be seriously serious about memory usage and access patterns as a first-order issue.

I agree with most of it, and not just because he quotes from my When Will Better JITs Save Managed Code blog post from last year.

Recommended.

Spoilers

A few takeaways from the conclusion (spoiler alert):

Garbage collection is exponentially bad in a memory-constrained environment. It is way, way worse than it is in desktop-class or server-class environments.

Every competent mobile developer, whether they use a GCed environment or not, spends a great deal of time thinking about the memory performance of the target device

JavaScript, as it currently exists, is fundamentally opposed to even allowing developers to think about the memory performance of the target device

If they did change their minds and allowed developers to think about memory, experience suggests this is a technically hard problem.

asm.js show some promise, but even if they win you will be using C/C++ or similar “backwards” language as a frontend, rather than something dynamic like JavaScript

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John Sonmez wrote a nice article on the weekend – both the article and the comments are worth reading.

“Why C++ Is Not ‘Back’”

by John Sonmez

I love C++. […] There are plenty of excellent developers I know today that still use C++ and teach others how to use it and there is nothing at all wrong with that.

So what is the problem then?

[…] Everyone keeps asking me if they need to learn C++, but just like my answer was a few years ago, it is the same today—NO!

Ok, so “NO” in caps is a bit harsh.  A better answer is “why?”

[…]

Although I don’t agree with everything John says, he presents something quite valuable, and unfortunately rare: a thoughtful hype-free opinion. This is valuable especially when (not just “even when”) it differs from your own opinion, because combining different thoughtful views of the same thing gives something exceedingly important and precious: perspective.

By definition, depth perception is something you get from seeing and combining more than one point of view. This is why one of my favorite parts of any conference or group interview is discussions between experts on points where they disagree – because experts do regularly disagree, and when they each present their thoughtful reasons and qualifications and specific cases (not just hype), you get to see why a point is valid, when it is valid and not valid, how it applies to a specific situation or doesn’t, and so on.

I encourage you to read the article and the comments. This quote isn’t the only thing I don’t fully agree with, but it’s the one thing I’ll respond to a little from the article:

There are only about three sensible reasons to learn C++ today that I can think of.

There are other major reasons in addition to those, such as:

  • Servicing, which is harder when you depend on a runtime.
  • Testing, since you lose the ability to test your entire application (compare doing all-static or mostly-static linking with having your application often be compiled/jitted for the first time on an end user’s machine).

These aren’t bad things in themselves, just tradeoffs and reasons to prefer native code vs managed code depending on your application’s needs.

But even the three points John does mention are very broad reasons that apply often, especially the issue of control over memory layouts, to the point where I would say: In any language, if you are serious about performance you will be using arrays a lot (not “always,” just “a lot”). Some languages make that easier and give you much better control over layout in general and arrays in particular, while other languages/environments make it harder (possible! but harder) and you have to “opt out” or “work against” the language’s/runtime’s strong preference for pointer-chasing node-based data structures.

For more, please see also my April 2012 Lang.NEXT talk “(Not Your Father’s) C++”, especially the second half:

  • From 19:20, I try to contrast the value and tenets of C++ and of managed language/environments, including that each is making a legitimate and useful design choice.
  • From 36:00, I try to address the question of: “can managed languages do essentially everything that’s interesting, so native C/C++ code should be really just for things like device drivers?”
  • From 39:00, I talk about when each one is valuable and should be used, especially that if programmer time is your biggest cost, that’s what you should optimize for and it’s exactly what managed languages/environments are designed for.

But again, I encourage you to read John’s article – and the comments – yourself. There’s an unusually high signal-to-noise ratio here.

It’s always nice to encounter a thoughtful balanced piece of writing, whether or not we agree with every detail. Thanks, John!

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In Welcome to the Jungle, I predicted that “weak” hardware memory models will disappear. This is true, and it’s happening before our eyes:

  • x86 has always been considered a “strong” hardware memory model that supports sequentially consistent atomics efficiently.
  • The other major architecture, ARM, recently announced that they are now adding strong memory ordering in ARMv8 with the new sequentially consistent ldra and strl instructions, as I predicted they would. (Actually, Hans Boehm and I influenced ARM in this direction, so it was an ever-so-slightly disingenuous prediction…)

However, at least two people have been confused by what I meant by “weak” hardware memory models, so let me clarify what “weak” means – it means something different for hardware memory models and software memory models, so perhaps those aren’t the clearest terms to use.

By “weak (hardware) memory model” CPUs I mean specifically ones that do not natively support efficient sequentially consistent (SC) atomics, because on the software side programming languages have converged on “sequential consistency for data-race-free programs” (SC-DRF, roughly aka DRF0 or RCsc) as the default (C11, C++11) or only (Java 5+) supported software memory model for software. POWER and ARMv7 notoriously do not support SC atomics efficiently.

Hardware that supports only hardware memory models weaker than SC-DRF, meaning that they do not support SC-DRF efficiently, are permanently disadvantaged and will either become stronger or atrophy. As I mentioned specifically in the article, the two main current hardware architectures with what I called “weak” memory models were current ARM (ARMv7) and POWER:

  • ARM recently announced ARMv8 which, as I predicted, is upgrading to SC acquire/release by adding new SC acquire/release instructions ldra and strl that are mandatory in both 32-bit and 64-bit mode. In fact, this is something of an industry first — ARMv8 is the first major CPU architecture to support SC acquire/release instructions directly like this. (Note: That’s for CPUs, but the roadmap for ARM GPUs is similar. ARM GPUs currently have a stronger memory model, namely fully SC; ARM has announced their GPU future roadmap has the GPUs fully coherent with the CPUs, and will likely add “SC load acquire” and “SC store release” to GPUs as well.)
  • It remains to be seen whether POWER will adapt similarly, or die out.

Note that I’ve seen some people call x86 “weak”, but x86 has always been the poster child for a strong (hardware) memory model in all of our software memory model discussions for Java, C, and C++ during the 2000s. Therefore perhaps “weak” and “strong” are not useful terms if they mean different things to some people, and I’ve updated the WttJ text to make this clearer.

I will be discussing this in detail in my atomic<> Weapons talk at C&B next week, which I hope to make freely available online in the near future (as I do most of my talks). I’ll post a link on this blog when I can make it available online.

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imageLast week at the Lang.NEXT 2012 conference in Redmond, I gave a 40-minute C++ talk and participated on a native languages panel. Both are now online at Channel 9.

Here’s the 40-min C++ talk, taken from the C9 site:

(Not Your Father’s) C++
Herb Sutter 

What makes ISO C++11 "feel like a new language"? What things that we know about past C++ do we need to unlearn? Why is C++ designed the way it is – historically, and in C++11? Finally, what is the difference between managed and native languages anyway, and when is each applicable? This talk gives an overview and motivation of modern C++ and why it’s clean, safe, and fast – as clean to code in and as type-safe as any modern language, and more than ever the king of "fast."

And the panel (my favorite highlight is at 24:00-28:00):

Lang.NEXT 2012 Expert Panel: Native Languages
Walter Bright, Robert Griesemer, Andrei Alexandrescu, Herb Sutter

Native programming languages panel hosted by Martyn Lovell.

I hope you enjoy them.

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A nice talk by Mads Torgersen just went live on Channel 9 about C#’s non-blocking Task<T>.ContinueWith() library feature and await language feature, which are a big hit in C# (and Visual Basic) for writing highly concurrent code that looks pretty much just like sequential code. Mads is one of the designers of await.

If you’re a C++ programmer, you may be interested in this because I’ve worked to have these very features be offered as proposals for ISO C++, just with a few naming tweaks like renaming Task<T>.ContinueWith() to std::future<T>::then(). They were initially presented at the recent Kona meeting in February, and we’ll dig deeper next month at the special ISO C++ study group meeting on concurrency and parallelism.

Here’s the talk link and abstract:

Language Support for Asynchronous Programming

Mads Torgersen

Asynchronous programming is what the doctor usually orders for unresponsive client apps and for services with thread-scaling issues. This usually means a bleak departure from the imperative programming constructs we know and love into a spaghetti hell of callbacks and signups. C# and VB are putting an end to that, reinstating all your tried-and-true control structures on top of a future-based model of asynchrony.

While we were chatting after the talk, I managed to gently twist Mads’ arm and he has graciously agreed to come to the May 7-9 ISO C++ parallelism study group special meeting to present this to the committee members in detail and answer questions about await’s design and C# users’ experience with it in production code, which will help the committee decide whether or not this is something they want to pursue for ISO C++.

I hope you enjoy the talk. While at Lang.NEXT, I also participated in a panel and gave a C++ talk but those sessions aren’t live yet; I’ll post links once they are.

Trivia: If you noticed the Romanian accent in the first question from the audience, it’s because it came from Andrei Alexandrescu, who was sitting beside Walter Bright, both of whom were two of the other speakers at the conference. It was fun to be in a room full of language designers and implementers sharing notes about each other’s languages and experience.

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Insert your favorite "stop the world" joke here.

In response to my note about John McCarthy’s inventing automatic (non ref-counted) garbage collection, rosen4obg asked:

OK, GC was invented half a century ago. When it is going to land in the C++ world?

Here’s a short but detailed answer, which links to illuminating reading and videos.

The Three Kinds of GC

The three major families of garbage collection are:

  1. Reference counting.
  2. Mark-sweep (aka non-moving) collectors, where objects are collected but live objects don’t move. This is what McCarthy first invented.
  3. Mark-compact (aka moving) collectors, where live objects are moved together to make allocated memory more compact. Note that doing this involves updating pointers’ values on the fly. This category includes semispace collectors as well as the more efficient modern ones like the .NET CLR’s that don’t use up half your memory or address space.

When I say “automatic GC” I mean #2 or #3.

GC and C++

C++ has always supported #1 well via reference counted smart pointers. Those are now standard in C++11 in the form of unique_ptr, shared_ptr, weak_ptr. C++98 had auto_ptr, but it was never great and has been deprecated.

C++ has long supported #2, but less formally because the products were nonstandard, conservative, and not as portable. The major prior art is the Boehm (later Great Circle and Symantec) mark-sweep garbage collector. The new C++11 standard has just added a minimal GC ABI to more formally bless such non-moving collectors; see Stroustrup’s GC FAQ for more.

C++ cannot support #3 without at least a new pointer type, because C/C++ pointer values are required to be stable (not change their values), so that you can cast them to an int and back, or write them to a file and back; this is why we created the ^ pointer type for C++/CLI which can safely point into #3-style compacting GC heaps. See section 3.3 of my paper A Design Rationale for C++/CLI for more rationale about ^ and gcnew.

Other GC Resources

For a wonderful 57-minute conversation on garbage collection by one of the world’s top GC experts, run don’t walk to the C9 “Inside Garbage Collection” interview with Patrick Dussud. Patrick wrote the .NET CLR’s GC, and it was far from his first; before that he had deep experience implementing Lisp runtimes, and I’m sure has forgotten more about GC than I’ll ever know. He’s also a great guy to work with.

For a great book on GC, I love Garbage Collection by Jones and Lins.

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Why C++

Channel 9 has just posted a recording of my intro talk at C++ and Beyond 2011 last month in Banff. Here’s the link: C++ and Beyond 2011: Why C++.

It’s a keynote-y talk, not a technical talk, but we felt it was important to address an important trend involving the language. The goal is to share a perspective and rationale for why of late there’s such a resurgence of interest in C++ — both across the industry, and within Microsoft.

Whether or not you agree with the perspective and rationale, I hope you enjoy it!

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